Signals, Summits & Strategic Listening

[00:00:09] Welcome to Frequency, I'm Chuck Gose and I'm Jenni Field. Frequency is your go-to for real talk about comms, culture and employee experience beyond the buzzwords and straight to what matters. Jenni, to kick things off this week, I want to talk a little bit about health and energy because when we recorded the last episode, I'm going to steal one of your words.

[00:00:34] We were both a bit poorly and I was a little worried about the energy level of the episode because I'm like, neither of us were feeling great. We powered through and there's those you try to mask it and cover it up, but actually we did a pretty good job keeping that energy level high.

[00:00:55] So when they give ourselves a pat on the back, but also recognize we are both still not feeling the greatest, but we love doing this. And so we're going to keep doing it and powering through it and sometime we'll deal with why we keep trudging along. I did say to people that I was chatting to this week that I've learned in the 10 episodes we've now done, this is our 10th, that if I'm tired or I'm not very well, I just get a bit more ranty and a bit more, a bit more annoyed.

[00:01:23] So that's my tell. If I'm really going at it, then you know I'm a little under the weather. Then I must just be tired all the time because I always feel a little ranty. A couple of things I want to talk about too. One, Jenny, I want you to share because myself and Ecology are now supporting your comms reboot event coming up later this month in Toronto. So I just want to give you a chance to talk a little bit more about that with the listeners.

[00:01:50] Yes, very exciting. So we are bringing comms reboot, which is the communications unconference to Toronto, thanks to the team at Contact Monkey. It's on the 25th of June. We've got about 50 people registered to come already, which is great. We've got a maximum of 80 that we can have. So very excited about that. And we've I'm so pleased that you're on board, not only to have Ecology members being able to come along and benefit from that,

[00:02:18] but also to have your expertise in the room alongside our other partners who will help facilitate the session. So we've got Panaki from Local Wisdom. We've got Andrea from Vision to Voice. We've got Priya from Inner Strength. We've got Rebecca from Bucket List and also the team at Contact Monkey. So I just think we've got such good knowledge and expertise in the room to help facilitate the discussions, which is really exciting.

[00:02:41] And the tickets are still less than $100. So I'm really hoping we'll get all of those 80 people in for the 25th of June. Yes, it'll be great being there and great getting to spend time with you, Jenny, because we spend this time together, but it's different virtually versus in person. Yes. Last thing before we get into your articles, I want you to help me pick a term that I've been struggling with here a little bit.

[00:03:07] And it goes to things that I keep seeing on LinkedIn where it seems to be cool, the cool thing to point out everything that's wrong or pick apart things that aren't working, but present zero solution or any sort of insight into how to fix it because it's easy to pick things apart. So some of the phrases I've come up with, because I'm going to start calling it out on LinkedIn, but I want your help in picking this.

[00:03:36] Is it problem posturing or I also like problem peacocking? Is it negative signaling, which is people always like framing things and opposition without any input or constructive input or diagnostic without prescription?

[00:03:54] People are like naming the illness, but they're not suggesting the cure because the behavior I do not find helpful when you're just saying here's everything that's wrong, but you're not actually wanting to fix it or remedy it. Any of those stand out to you? So I quite like negative signaling because I think it does what it says. I think that problem posturing or problem peacocking could kind of need a bit more of an explanation.

[00:04:19] And I think that might sound too much like a bit of a buzzword thing, whereas if you said that you're just negative signaling here and that's not particularly helpful. I think it allows for the positive elements of of that message to come through. I like the diagnostic without prescription, but that's because I talk a lot about diagnosing the root cause of problems before you fix them. So I quite like that as well.

[00:04:43] But I think I would probably go with negative signaling because it is a problem and it's something I was talking about earlier this week as well that we're just talking about the problems and we'll talk about this in one of the podcasts I've listened to about why that's not helpful as well. Okay, so it sounds like we're torn between negative signaling and problem peacocking. Got it. Okay, Jenny. Yeah, let's get into your stories for the week. Cool. Okay, so I have got a few things to cover this week.

[00:05:12] Some are some recent research articles that have come out. Some others are actually linked to a podcast that was released a while ago, but the sort of social media clips have been doing the rounds a little bit and I came across one the other day. So I want to talk about that. So we're going to chat over the course of the episode about the recent Gallagher summit in London that I was at. I'm going to talk about the risk of venting, which talks a bit to negative signaling.

[00:05:38] And I'm going to talk about AI and the real future of work. But to get us started, I want to talk about some research that was highlighted to me through the internal comms research hub that I'm part of. And we get emails every now and then with the latest research and insights in employee experience, internal comms and things. And there was a report that came through about how employee experience drives employee behaviors.

[00:06:03] And I quite liked this because it's linking something that we talk about a lot to a specific outcome behaviors, which I think is important to bring those two together. And it was the integral index 2025 is what it's called and the insights from that. So this was looking at how employee experience drives the behaviors. It's an annual study. It explores how experiences and perceptions influence behaviors in the workplace.

[00:06:30] And this was conducted with 2000 US employees in partnership with the Harris Poll. And this 2025 index looks at communication, leadership support, culture, AI adoption, all of those things and how that affects engagement really and behaviors. So there were some key findings that I wanted to bring to the podcast today.

[00:06:51] So it says that only 54% of employees say that major organizational changes such as reorganizations, leadership changes or layoffs are communicated clearly with the reasons explained. Senior leaders are 33 points more likely than non managers to say their organization rewards performance, which highlights a real disconnect in perception between leaders and non managers.

[00:07:18] Employees aged 26 to 44 are substantially more positive about AI than those younger or older. Fear of AI is remaining, especially among the youngest employees. So 40% of workers aged 18 to 25 express this concern compared to 26% of employees across all of age groups. So there's quite a worry there. And I think we can probably talk about why that is.

[00:07:45] The other one is that employees are significantly more likely to demonstrate positive behaviors when they believe their organization lives by its stated values. Similarly, when employees feel their personal values align with those of the organization, they're more likely to demonstrate positive behaviors. So sharing that correlation between values, employee experience, employee engagement really nicely there through some research.

[00:08:09] So I suppose my question today is there weren't really many surprises in this for me when I was looking at it. It felt like this sort of reconfirming what we know. But that gap in the perception on rewarding performance felt quite big. And it felt like it was signaling maybe a bigger issue around hierarchy. But I just wanted to talk about that and any other thoughts you have on some of those sort of key stats that I've shared.

[00:08:36] Yeah, I had sort of four takeaways from this study. How many do you want to go through, Jenny? Go through two. Go through two. Okay, the first one is that gap between senior leaders and non-managers, especially around rewarding performance. It's a huge fracture inside organizations.

[00:09:01] I've heard that call when you've got that misalignment between layers. I've heard that called like altitude bias, where the higher up someone is, the more positive the view. So I think this is an example of that where senior leaders overwhelmingly believe performance is rewarded, but drops to non-managers. So to me, that's not just frustrating, but also has to be demotivating to see that gap between those two.

[00:09:32] And I think the other part on this is that disconnect that the stories that now leaders are saying about performance doesn't match what employees are experiencing. Again, another fracture where leaders often see promotions and rewards as merit-based because they're involved in that decision-making.

[00:09:54] But if there's no transparency to it or employees think there's favoritism or proximity bias, or there's some politicking going on inside the company, then employees are going to feel the exact opposite of it. So that disconnect then becomes perception, which then becomes the reality of that employee experience. Mm-hmm. True. And it's that thread that goes through.

[00:10:20] It's always that, for me, it's always that connection between that person's perception becomes their reality. Like, and that's so hard to manage from an employee experience perspective. It's that sort of psychological contract part of it that you can't control that. That's the hardest thing to get right. The only thing you can do is get that alignment. And that alignment is so important for people to impact that perception, to impact how people feel at work.

[00:10:45] And the other thing I wanted to point out there was, I was thinking like, what can communicators do? You've got this data. So what can they do? So I'm going to sneak in my third one here at the end, Jenny. This gap could be an opportunity for them if and only if they can tell the story of how performance is evaluated and rewarded.

[00:11:11] And showcase that it is visible, fair, values-based. It could build the bridge between that perception and reality that everyone has. But that only works if comms is not covering it up. If you're just putting the spin on it and actually don't believe it yourself, then don't even do it. Don't even do it. And just to jump on that, to answer that question of like, what can communicators do about it?

[00:11:41] For me, it's making sure that things are aligned to the values of the organization. I think that's probably the thing I've seen most this year so far is this disconnect between communication activity and some and quite often decisions being made at a leadership level that aren't aligned to the values. I was working with a client recently where I was doing an observation of their leadership team. And in the conversation, there was a big discussion about reward and what they were doing. And I couldn't say anything because I was there to just observe.

[00:12:08] But I just kept in my head thinking, well, what's your value? Like, how does this link to your values? How does it link to your values? Like, it's got to always come back to that. And I think as a communication professional, that's part of the ask, right? Make sure you've got that link together. Definitely. Definitely. I'm going to move us in to the Gallagher Summit in London themes because I'm fresh off the back of being at that event for a couple of days where we talked about a lot of different topics.

[00:12:36] So it's a two day conference in London and it used to be the Simply Communicate events since they've been acquired by Gallagher. It's now the Gallagher Summit. Lots of different topics. There was talk about change. There was AI. There was the importance of feelings. There was how to build your confidence. There was discussions on cultural intelligence. There was a lot. It was like a mini world conference for me where you get lots of different themes, lots of different tracks going on a lot.

[00:13:05] But the main themes people left with definitely seemed to be around change and the human aspect of comms, like listening and feelings that really sort of came through. There was loads of content. I went to probably about five or six sessions across the two days in between chatting to people because I just like chatting to people.

[00:13:23] But there was some interesting insights and stats that I wanted to bring to the podcast because I thought they would be helpful for people that are looking at organizational change, employee experience, internal comms, AI, those things. So I'm going to run through those and then we can chat about your thoughts on those. So there was some data shared from the team at Ipsos, Carrying and Box that they've done a lot of analysis on change and how long change takes.

[00:13:48] And there's this sort of belief that we'll go through a change project and then we'll bounce back. But the data shows at the moment it's sort of one to two years to get back to normality. And that is partly because they're sort of layer upon layer upon layer of change that sort of compounding that. But you're looking at one to two years for things to come out the other side. And that's helpful for us to advise leaders on that.

[00:14:12] Some really interesting insights from Sarah Black on cultural intelligence, where she shared that 90% of leadership content is based on leading people with egalitarian or individualistic values. I'm going to share some links to some of this in the show notes so people can have a look. But this is interesting because that's individualistic value. So thinking about yourself. But 70% of the global workforce are collectivists. So thinking about everybody. So that's why there's such a disconnect between leaders and everybody else.

[00:14:42] So more stats from Karen and Box. So 56% of UK employees say their organization's strategy is the right one for success. So we've got a bit of a gap there. 55% of employees say they trust their CEO or their most senior leader. One in four organizations will make redundancies in the next quarter. I mean, this is bleak. I apologize for this. There's an empathy gap.

[00:15:08] One in two UK employees say leaders understand the challenges employees face. So we've already touched on that and that altitude bias you used, which is definitely a phrase I'm enjoying. There was also some stats around the pace of change with technology. So there was a discussion about how long it takes things to reach 100 million users. So mobile phones took 16 years. The internet was seven years. Facebook was four and a half years. Chat GPT took three months to get to 100 million users.

[00:15:38] So that pace and trying to keep up with that has just got even quicker. And then I just want to finish with a quote that's actually from Aristotle. And this was shared in a session about generational differences. And the quote is, young people are high minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of necessity. They think they know everything and are always quite sure about it.

[00:16:03] And it was a great quote to share about how we always think that generation coming after us have we always think the same. This is Aristotle. This is hundreds of years old. So it's not a new thing that we feel like this about different generations. So I just wanted to share that as well. But I just wanted to get your thoughts. There's some really bleak stats in here about the state of the workplace cultures economy. And I just wanted to get your take on it as I'm fresh off two days of learning.

[00:16:32] Yeah, it definitely dominated my LinkedIn feed. I would say the last couple of days of seeing some of the commentary shared, but also great to see some photos of people gathering, which is always one of the highlights of being in person. I do think bleak is a great example. So some of those where you said like, you know, 55% of employees trust their CEO or most senior leader. That means half do and half don't. Same thing with the strategy is the right one for success.

[00:16:59] Pretty much half believe it is half believe it's not. What I'm curious about is in the beginning of it, you were talking about the importance of feelings. And in recent episodes, we've talked about some of the more crass stances that leadership is taking with employees. So does leadership even care how employees are feeling?

[00:17:26] Like, I wonder if someone went to their senior leader was like, here's how people are feeling. Like, what are they going to do? Yeah. How are they going to respond to that? It feels really harsh to say they don't care because certainly the leadership teams I work with hugely care about their teams. But there was a conversation on the first day where there was an example around the importance of listening.

[00:17:51] So going out to listen to a thousand people in this organization and taking the time to do that as a leader of that organization. And the speaker was was really honest and said, like, my board didn't want me to do this. Like they didn't want me to do it partly because of the time it was going to take for me to do that piece of work. But also, I think a little bit of that fear of we know it's not great and I'm not sure we really want to lift up that that rug or lift up that rock. Listening to a thousand people took a year.

[00:18:21] So it was a year out of not out of the business, but it was a year in total to do kind of groups of 20 to 30 people listening and going through that. And that's a commitment. But I always come back to organizations of people that you don't have one without them. So I we have to start caring about it or even if we don't care, we have to start listening. I think that's the biggest thing.

[00:18:44] And I think that's to your to the point of the stats, the ones you've called out that, you know, half of people don't think the strategies right. Half of the people don't trust their leaders. The only way to fix that is conversation and listening, in my opinion. Hearing that example of the board not really wanting to do that. That is the classic example of the ostrich effect, which is when times are good. Everybody's looking around. Things are going great.

[00:19:14] Yeah, let's do this. If things aren't looking great, bury your head. Let's not let's not find out what what people are saying. So it does feel like that that is example full on display. Yeah, that board of not even wanting to know because they probably already know. Yeah, they just don't want it confirmed. Yeah. I think the other thing I took away from the two days was there was a panel on DEI and inclusion and talking about that.

[00:19:41] And there was a really great point which was said by I think it was said by Vita Patel, who's a very good friend of mine. And I'm sure it was her that said it, that it's not the role of a comms professional to create the inclusion strategy. And I think that we do sometimes think that the role of the comms professional is to fix all of these problems. And we've talked about this on previous episodes. Like there has to be that that line and actually having this data and insight is then about how you take that and have conversations about where you need to focus your time and energy.

[00:20:10] Because there's a lot of work going on inside organizations and some of that I'm not sure is actually helping us achieve what we really need to achieve. So it's about taking this and how do you focus it and do the stuff that you need to do because you can't be responsible for everything. The next item I want to talk about is a podcast and it was a diary of a CEO podcast with Dr. K and it's talking about brain rot and things like that.

[00:20:35] But in the reason the podcast clip has started to be shared is it's talking about venting and why venting isn't the way to solve our problems. And when I heard this, I had a real. What's the word? Light bulb moment about it. So this is the quote from the podcast. So this is a big thing that people don't understand. The primary motivator for change is actually negative energy and negative emotion. So this is the problem with venting.

[00:21:06] If you vent and get rid of all your negative emotional energy, the drive to change will disappear. So if we kind of think about it, what motivates you the most is the negative emotion. And you can look at the neuroanatomy of things like the amygdala in your brain and what that happens and how that links to your hippocampus, which is where learning and memory happen. So we actually learn the most through negative emotions.

[00:21:32] This got me thinking partly now linked to your first point about negative signaling on social media or peacocking and things. But it's I really had this moment of, oh, oh, no. I literally did that. Oh, no, because we're all coming together at conferences and events in the in internal comms. And we're all venting like there's so much where people say this feels like therapy. This is really great.

[00:21:59] So we're getting all of this venting out and then we're carrying on doing what we're doing. And I'm not saying that's the case everywhere, but there's so much talk now of we're having the same conversations we've always had for the last 10, 20 years. Nothing's really moving forward. Is that because we're all just venting? I don't know. So I just want to know what you think about it. And is it then that we shouldn't vent at all?

[00:22:27] Because, I mean, you and I are going to be rubbish at that. But how do we then take that negative and move it into action whilst also being able to share some of that? I just I found it so interesting about that link between the two. I had a reaction to it as well, because I think in my head, I've always thought that venting was healthy. You're releasing this so that you can kind of move on. But this guest makes a great point around.

[00:22:55] Then you're not then you're not changing anything. So it's got me to rethink something. So I have joked with people before and I'm probably not really a joke that. If grudge holding was an Olympic sport, I actually think I would represent the US. I think. Well, yeah, you're grudge spice though, right? I think I could compete. I think I would represent the country well in it, because to me, that's a little bit of hanging on to it.

[00:23:25] The people that have the forgive and forget. Not no forgive. Yes. Forget. Never, never. I love hanging on the receipts. People will mean, I don't know when that I was like, oh, I remember that was 2015. It was at this event, this person speaking. So I understand his thoughts. So I guess it's the point of venting for what purpose? Yeah.

[00:23:52] If part of that venting, a part of that releasing it is actually to make the change. It's actually to solve the problem. It's actually to fix things. Then I think that's part of using those negative emotions and negative energy to a solution. If it's venting to feel better about yourself, then yeah, you're not. It's just going to come back again later.

[00:24:17] So it really has made me think that not that you shouldn't vent or not that you should bottle up all your emotions and press them all down deep inside. Though that does happen as well. It's to what purpose? Yeah. And I'm a known ranter and I had a boss in the past. I'll call out here, Sonia Fiorenza, who was very good at times of letting me vent and rant.

[00:24:47] But even she knew at some point, stop. Yeah. Like this is your last one. Get it out. We're not coming back to this again. Because going back to this gentleman's point, it wasn't changing anything. It wasn't fixing anything. It wasn't solving anything. It just made me feel better that someone heard me. But nothing changed. So it took a few years to get to this point now where it's like, oh, that's right. That was her point behind it. Yeah.

[00:25:16] But yeah, it's like to what purpose are we venting or ranting? Whatever word you want to throw in there. And I think that's my challenge for people that are using platforms like LinkedIn or places like that to kind of point out all the things that aren't good enough or aren't right. Then there has to be action. You have to be part of the solution, not just kind of signaling the problem, really. So I just thought it was so interesting. Which I wanted to talk about it.

[00:25:41] Now, my last article this week is on AI and the end of traditional work. It's a Forbes article talking about whether we're entering a post-work era. And this came across my phone from my good friend, Trudy Lewis, who shared it with me after I started a random Sunday conversation in our WhatsApp chat with Advisa Patel as well, saying,

[00:26:06] if the world of work timing wise needs to change, how does that happen? So we've worked, certainly in the UK, Monday to Friday, nine to five weeks. So the construct of that Monday to Friday work, Saturday, Sunday weekend. How does that change? Like, how long has it been like that? How does that change societally? Like, who makes that decision? And I went back and had a look at when it all happened and how it changed.

[00:26:32] And the Monday to Friday work, Saturday, Sunday weekend, came in from Henry Ford because he wanted people to enjoy his cars more. And this was about 1908, right? So over 100 years, we've had this Monday to Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And I think wherever you are in the world, to some degree, there is this sort of five days on, two days off. They just might shift in different places. So how do we change that? And this was my question.

[00:26:57] So Trudy sent me this article, which talks about how AI is going to shift that sort of work model, because that's what I think is a real fundamental issue for us in how technology's changed. We've had the pandemic. There's been loads in 100 years. I'm not going to list that, but there's been so much that's happened, yet we still have the same construct. And this article talks about what's going to happen. So there's a quote in it where it mentions a McKinsey study.

[00:27:25] So by 2030, a McKinsey study predicts automation could displace between 400 million to 800 million jobs worldwide. That brings the question of, well, what are we doing with our lives if it's not all work? And then alongside that, there's a quote from Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI. And he's saying that AI will handle 95% of what marketers use agencies, strategists and creative professionals for today.

[00:27:54] So I feel like AI is going to be the catalyst to move this. But I also still don't know who makes that decision about how we shift this, because it's so embedded in our world that work is the majority of time and non-work is not the majority of time. How do we make sense of that flip and how do we get okay with that? It's a big question. I know.

[00:28:23] But what do you think? It is a big question. And I think because it's such a big question, there is no anything close to a simple answer for this. Because I was even thinking about even what other calendars are based on Monday through Friday and then the weekend, like school calendars, educational calendars are built on that.

[00:28:47] But also there is a large portion of society who their weekend, if you want to call it that, might be Tuesday, Wednesday. Yes. Because they work in healthcare or retail or whatever. But it still is this, even companies who are trying to switch to like the four-day work week, which I am 100% on board with. I actually love that idea. Because you think about, yes, this has been credited to Henry Ford and unions,

[00:29:14] because it was all about also making sure employees had time of leisure as well. That was a big part of that strategy. But to change that, I was trying to think of other institutional lifestyle elements of that. And it's hard to think of something that is so universal. Yeah. Where we think of Monday through Friday as the work week and Saturday and Sunday as the weekend.

[00:29:41] So I don't think it ever does. Or if it does, this model has been in place for 120 years, rounded. I feel like it would take another 120 years for things to be rewritten in a different way. You almost have to change the names of the days. Yeah.

[00:30:06] To get people to rethink that Saturday and Sunday are so synonymous with week. You'd almost have to change the name of the days of the week. Which think about how controversial that would become. It'd be like I have said this would be a similar change. I don't think we should have time zones. It should just be the same time everywhere all the time.

[00:30:32] So let's say it's 9 a.m. where I am, Jenny, so it's 2 p.m. where you are. Yeah. Why can't it just also be 9 a.m. for you and it's 9 a.m. for me? Or 2 p.m. for you and it's 2 p.m. for me and we just know. But all of a sudden my day doesn't start at 7 a.m. My day might start at 2 a.m. But our brains are so conditioned to think about not just work days but working time. What time is 9 to 5?

[00:31:02] Why does that have to be 9 to 5? Like I don't think it does. I do think it's interesting. I'm not surprised that Sam Altman is this 95% figure. Like that's not surprising. I would expect the CEO of OpenAI to say something like that. But to change this foundational and institutional element of work weeks and work days and work hours. Yeah, I don't think it does. Yeah, I know. It's a big one, isn't it?

[00:31:31] But I just, I mean, unlike you, I like a four-day week. And since I've had my own consultancy, I've always tried to do four-day weeks. I mean, it doesn't work, but it means that on Fridays I don't have many client meetings or things like that. So I can do whatever I want on that day. And that's the structure that's important to me is it's like it's my time. If I want to work and get stuff done, if I do want to have calls, I can. But I'm not sort of stuck to that.

[00:31:59] But I think this is a big question. And I'm hoping that someone who has the authority to look at it more is really looking at how we balance work and play and how we maybe make it more that it's a 50-50 split rather than the majority work and what that then looks like. Because technology has to have an impact on that. It has to have an impact on that structure and those societal norms in order for us to get the benefits from it. And we're in that tension at the moment.

[00:32:27] And I'm hoping it won't take another 120 years. But who knows? Who knows? Well, and at least we learned from last week's episode, Jenny, that you're getting your evenings back. Yes, I am. So you might be working during the day, but you're getting your evenings back. Oh, don't. Don't. Well, that nicely brings us on to our freakouts for this week. So what are you freaking out about? What's on your list? So it's a new documentary that's out.

[00:32:56] And if anybody's listened to it before, I've said that the five most annoying words someone can say is, have you seen the documentary? But this actually is one. You're doing it. It is a two-part documentary called Pee-wee as himself, all about Pee-wee Herman. It was so beautifully done. And I grew up as a kid watching Pee-wee's Playhouse.

[00:33:23] I have a friendship in college that was pretty much foundationally built on lines from Pee-wee's Big Adventure. But people have to remember, back then there was not this investigative details about things. So I didn't know who Pee-wee Herman was. I didn't know the history of the character of Pee-wee Herman.

[00:33:44] Yes, I knew a little bit about some of the challenges that Paul Rubin faced, both criminally a few times, but also this interesting scenario of him even trying to realize who is he. Is he Paul Rubin? Is he Pee-wee Herman? Like, it's so well done. I do reckon part one is way better than part two. Part two starts to get a little dark and go down to some bad places.

[00:34:13] But it was really interesting for me as a kid who grew up watching Pee-wee Herman and appreciating Pee-wee Herman and very nostalgic when they were showing it. But also to see the history of him developing this character with the groundlings in L.A. and the reasons why Phil Hartman was in it at the beginning but then not at the end. And just some of the challenges Paul Rubin faced with this character of who he got to be known as.

[00:34:40] So if you, I would say, are a child of the 80s, definitely watch Pee-wee as himself. It is on Max. That's the streaming service it added. Fantastic documentary. Absolutely loved it. Okay. I'm going to have to watch it because I grew up watching the film Pee-wee's Big Adventure. My sister and I watched that all the time. And as you're talking, in my head, I'm doing the dance that he does. Right. And that's all I can see in my head.

[00:35:07] And you've just reminded me of so many lines from the film that I've sort of forgotten. And the scary sort of woman in the truck. Tell them Large Marge sent you. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I? Yeah. Infinity. I'm going to have to watch it. I love it. I've gone back to being about 10. I love it. I'm going to watch it. It says on Max. Good. I'm going to find it.

[00:35:34] So my freak out this week is keynotes and fireside chats. So fresh from a conference. So fresh from a conference where I will always look at who the keynote speakers are, because they're often the speakers that have maybe been paid to be there. And they are often people that have a really good story to tell, big themes, that sort of stuff.

[00:35:59] And at not just this event, at other events I've been to, the keynotes have been a chat. I have written fireside chats down, but I know you've spoken about how much that annoys you. So they've been a chat. There was no fire on the stage. And I was just really annoyed because I wanted to hear a keynote.

[00:36:22] And I just think if you're doing an event or a conference or anything like that, then your keynote is the person that's setting the theme. They're setting the tone. They're getting that big thinking in right up front to really set that stage for the few days. When it's a conversation between two people, that's not doing that. And so don't say it's a keynote. Say it's an onstage chat, not fireside. But say what it is.

[00:36:48] Don't just make it a keynote because it's the first thing, because that isn't what a keynote is. And it's annoying when you're someone that is really looking forward to hearing someone speak that you think is going to be brilliant and set this scene. And then it's just a chit chat. And it just annoys me. Yep. I would say there's actually very few keynotes at events that I would say have stood up for it. I remember the first one was IBC World Conference in Montreal.

[00:37:18] I think this might have been 2018. Seth Godin was the opening keynote. I'd always wanted to hear Seth Godin speak. It was the keynote was not personalized. It was vaguely relevant to attendees there. But I know you're snickering at it. Let me finish. It was a really great keynote. It was a great keynote.

[00:37:43] What was interesting, though, is to see the life of some keynote speakers where Seth, this isn't a dig at him, not that he's listening, but this isn't a dig at Seth Godin. He rolled in with a suitcase. Did this amazing talk and then rolled right back out with a suitcase. But what it did was set a tone for the event. And that's what I think a keynote needs to do.

[00:38:09] And when I had the privilege of running the Attune events for First Up, I took the keynotes very seriously. We've talked about John Acuff on previous episodes. John Acuff was one of them. Because I felt like this isn't the nuts and bolts of the event. This is to inspire. Yeah. This is to bring energy. This is to provide insight. This is to raise the level of everything happening.

[00:38:33] And, yeah, some people just think the keynote is like the longer talk or it's the most popular person or it's the whatever. And to your point, now you've got me on fireside chats. I feel like no one wants to say panel anymore. So they just say fireside chat. And so when I've been asked to lead panels at event, I will say I will not. I'm not leading one.

[00:39:01] So I restructure them in creative ways. So that's where I would challenge event organizers. If you want to have this dialogue, have it. But get creative with it. Do not put two or three chairs on a stage with the same background on it and have people just sit there listening to people talk. Like that's not great content. That's why I don't like panels. It's because I don't see them as great content.

[00:39:29] Mostly they're poorly run. They're not interesting. So if I am ever a panel guest, which I will be at the end of the month at Impact 25, which is a PRSA event. Anybody listening that is going to that? I will make it interesting. Yeah. Somehow, some way. Because I just refuse to be a part of boring stuff, plain and simple. Yeah.

[00:39:51] I think event organizers underestimate the skill needed to be a good interviewer when it is a chat to engage, you know, two, three, four hundred people in a room. Like that's a skill. Because otherwise you're just sat watching two people have a chat and it's a bit weird. Whereas that it's a skill and it's something that you need someone that is a professional to be able to do that. And I think that's really important. And like I said, it wasn't just the event that I've been to recently.

[00:40:21] I've been to other events in the internal comm space where it's been a keynote and it's been a chat. And please don't do that. Like just say it's a chat. That's it's OK. But it's not a keynote. And I'll start ranting now because really all I have to say now is thank you. Thank you for joining us this week. All of the articles that we have talked about that have inspired this conversation are in the show notes. So don't forget to rate and review after you've listened because that really does help us out.

[00:40:49] Subscribe as well so that you don't miss another episode. And pass this along to someone that you think would enjoy listening or watching because we're on YouTube. Thank you to Poet Ali for contributing the music to the show. And we will be back next week with more news, insights and opinions about everything comms leadership in workplaces today. So keep tuning in and turning up.